# SIG-MRG 2026-10-08 — Session Notes Participants: - Kei 🗝 | UTC-4 - hyperstitious - Jeremiasz Rzenno | CET - Mark Elder - Othmangba - Ben - jawn --- ## 📖 The Reading Michael Levin's paper **"Ingressing Minds"** (referred to by Kei as "Ingressing Lines," likely a transcription slip), published in a philosophy journal. This was the **second session** on the paper. The reading concerns where recurring morphogenic forms/"bioelectric memory patterns" come from and, for this session, what these patterns *are* and how they act with agency in the world. Kei also referenced a related Levin piece previously read by the group ("The Space of Possible Minds," now retitled "AI could be a bridge toward diverse intelligence"). ## 🧭 Overview Kei framed the session as building on a prior discussion about the *origin* of Levin's bioelectric/morphogenic patterns, shifting focus to the *nature* of those patterns and their proposed agency and "evolution" within a quasi-neoplatonic realm. After a silent reading of an excerpt, participants shared what felt intuitive versus shocking in the paper, with particular attention to Levin's blending of hard biology with psychoanalysis and platonic metaphysics. The conversation ranged across memory models (storage/retrieval vs. distributed/dynamic), the question of whether a separate nonphysical realm exists, and connections to ethics, Giordano Bruno, and embedding spaces. ## 💡 Key Points & Themes - **Kei (framing):** Levin posits that morphologies "ingress" into the world from a nonphysical, quasi-neoplatonic space — a rereading of Plato's realm of forms, where forms may be not just geometric (triangles) but lifelike, with their own agency and even their own evolution. - **Kei (caveat):** Though Levin is a rigorous biologist at Tufts, this paper is speculative/intuitive, published in a philosophy journal, and not necessarily well received among his scientific peers. - **Opening question (wound healing / autonomous processes):** Kei asked what the body "consults" when it heals a wound overnight or breathes autonomously; his intuitive answer was "cellular memory," but what *is* cellular memory? - **Mark:** Connected this to *autogenic training* — consciously controlling normally unconscious processes (e.g., sending blood to fingertips). - **Kei:** Mentioned a study showing imagined muscle contractions increased muscle mass beyond the norm. - **Othmangba:** Suggested such memory may be largely stored in DNA — genetic/epigenetic instructions the body defaults to. Kei noted Levin's claim is more radical than epigenetics: an actual nonphysical realm of ingressing forms. - **Levin's distinction (via Kei):** Different sciences are different tools; physics "lacks explanatory power" for things like habit, OCD, or mind — you wouldn't bring a hammer to a glassblowing workshop. Levin situates minds along a *spectrum* of complexity/agency (his "diverse intelligences" program), not panpsychism. - **Othmangba:** The low-/high-agency patterns in platonic space reminded him of **habit formation** — an idea begins as a thought, enters "meat space," and becomes unconscious behavior. - **hyperstitious (Martina):** Found the paper both intuitive and shocking given its hard-science lineage. Noted its resemblance to theories of computation/mind and to *rationalist* language; was struck by Levin describing this as a **behavioral science**, with a diagram placing mathematics at the bottom and **psychoanalysis at the top**, plus repeated references to **Carl Jung**. - **Jeremiasz:** Found the addition of a **temporal layer to logic** intuitively fascinating, and considered the invitation to apply psychoanalysis to hard science a nuanced move. - **Mark:** Drew a parallel between Levin's "pattern space and pointers" and **Giordano Bruno's** ideas on shadows and images — forms exceeding their particular appearances; two thinkers from different eras whose ideas "rhyme." - **Kei (two philosophical axes):** (1) Is there a separate nonphysical realm? — with roughly three stances: a separate realm; a single realm with imperceptible elements; or a nondualist "not-two" recursive view. (2) Do these patterns have agency / life / the ability to evolve on their own? Kei placed the paper at the "detonation point" between these divisions and tied it to continental philosophy's virtual/real distinction. - **Ben:** Levin on his radar but first deep read. Sticking point is the platonic/physical separation. Proposed that pattern-organization across scales is fundamentally **about ethics** — coordinating units harmoniously into wholes. Stated the **orthogonality thesis** (intelligence and ethics are orthogonal) is "dead wrong"; the platonic form might be an uncapturable platonic *ethics*. - **Kei (memory angle):** Why the group reads this — the recurring question of the *medium* of memory. Challenges the brain-as-filing-cabinet storage/retrieval model (extended to body/nervous system). Levin proposes nonphysical storage *plus* evolution/agency. Kei prefers an arrow running the *other* way (à la Ted Chiang's "Exhalation"): memory as dynamic, distributed, constituted in relationship, possibly generated through matter toward platonic space. - **Othmangba:** Perhaps this "realm" existed before but was less externalized; technology now makes memory more physical/visible, so the realm feels "closer" and needs defining. - **Ben:** Agreed the storage/retrieval model is insufficient, though couldn't articulate exactly why — an intuition. - **Mark:** Offered a poetic image — the body as a **radio** and the realm of forms as the **signal** different material compositions pick up; and, via Bruno, memories as partial "shadows" that never capture the whole, with each recall evoking a slightly different facet of the source. - **jawn:** Shared work on **embeddings** — tracing concepts (e.g., days, months) into geometric representations in embedding space that are transferable across languages, suggesting a "shape to ideas" / existing geometry independent of semantic meaning, which resonates with a platonic-ideal reading. - **hyperstitious (closing):** Found it clearer to conceive of Levin's "platonic space" not as another realm but analogous to **time** — something nonphysical we are nonetheless embedded in and participatory in. Acknowledging the reality of mathematical proofs/patterns need not imply a separate realm. Kei agreed this matches his own intuition. ## 🔀 Questions & Disagreements - **hyperstitious** flagged a possible **contradiction in Levin's "kinds vs. degrees"** framing: at points he suggests mind/life/intelligence share one kind differing only in degree/intensity, while elsewhere he speaks of higher or more sophisticated *kinds*. She asked for others' readings but this was left unresolved. - **Does a separate nonphysical realm actually exist?** Participants diverged intuitively: hyperstitious and Kei leaned toward "not a separate realm" (embedded-participation / time-like analogy); the paper (and Bruno) lean toward a genuine other realm with agency. Kei noted he personally does *not* agree with Levin's approach, preferring memory generated through matter. - **Ben** disputed the orthogonality thesis, positing ethics as foundational to intelligence/complexity — a stance the group did not debate at length. - **Where do patterns come from if not another realm?** Kei posed this directly; Othmangba offered the "less externalized before" idea but no firm resolution emerged. - General acknowledgment that the group is "navigating via intuition" rather than settled conclusions. ## 🔗 References Mentioned - Michael Levin — "Ingressing Minds" (the reading); his "diverse intelligences" program; his RSS podcast with scientists. - Levin — "The Space of Possible Minds" / retitled "AI could be a bridge toward diverse intelligence" (previously read by the group). - Plato — realm of forms / eternal triangles. - Giordano Bruno — shadows and images; forms exceeding appearances (raised by Mark). - Carl Jung / psychoanalysis (noted in Levin's paper). - Autogenic training (Mark). - A study on imagined muscle contractions increasing muscle mass (Kei, unnamed). - Ted Chiang — "Exhalation" (short story; memory as dynamic/distributed). - The orthogonality thesis (Ben). - Michael Johnson — "Vaso computation" (floated as a possible future reading). - Embedding spaces / geometric representations of concepts transferable across languages; arXiv papers jawn offered to share. - The group's recent symposium (referenced in passing). ## ✅ Action Items & Next Time - **jawn** agreed to drop the arXiv papers on embeddings/concept geometry into the channel. - **Kei** will post in the memory research group channel about the next reading — candidates mentioned: **Michael Johnson's "Vaso computation"** or "something radically different." - Participants encouraged to read/skim the full Levin paper (or use an AI summary) ahead of future sessions. ## ⭐ Memorable Quotes - **hyperstitious:** "There was so much of this paper that both felt very intuitive and also was absolutely shocking." - **Mark:** "I do kind of like the idea of the body being kind of a radio and then the realm of forms being the signal that different bodies and different material compositions pick up on." - **Ben:** "The orthogonality thesis that intelligence and ethics are orthogonal is just dead wrong."